Spurious?
@ Rattigan350
Wouldn't it be hard to quote a verse that was supposedly added in the Middle Ages centuries before is was supposedly added?
Sea Breeze
JoinedPosts by Sea Breeze
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God, Jesus, & Holy Spirit - never mentioned together in one authentic verse.
by BoogerMan inin every scripture where god & jesus appear, the holy spirit is always awol/mia.. probably explains the existence of binitarians..
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Sea Breeze
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God, Jesus, & Holy Spirit - never mentioned together in one authentic verse.
by BoogerMan inin every scripture where god & jesus appear, the holy spirit is always awol/mia.. probably explains the existence of binitarians..
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Sea Breeze
What about these?
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. - 1 John 5: 7
Early support for traditional reading of 1 John 5: 7 :
200 AD Tertullian quoted the verse in his Apology, Against Praxeas
250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
550 AD Old Latin ms r has it
550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it
800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
1500 AD ms 61 has the verse
Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.
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A Little About Me & What Is a Resurrection?
by Sea Breeze ina little about me first: i was a 4th generation jw who had major reservations about the wt growing up, but finally got on board at age 23 when i got baptized.
spent 8 very active years in, then 8 years out as an agnostic.
got saved in 2004 and been living the born-again christian bible-believing life ever since.
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Sea Breeze
A physical resurrection would be bringing a dead person back to life, whether in their existing body or a new one. A spiritual resurrection would be one where the dead is brought back as a spirit/ghost or into a different realm than the physical (heaven/hell/etc).
@TonusOH - I think your definition closely represents JW's and XJW's view. So, I'll look at that. I appreciate everyone's comments though, even my atheist / agnostic friends.
Just want to introduce a few concepts and definitions here at first.
1. Logic is a presuppositional-based chain of rational truth statements that do not contradict each other.
2. Presuppositions are preconditions for intelligibility. They are assumptions that are present BEFORE your starts to examine anything.
3. Worldview is the lens by which data is interpreted. In other words, we all have the same data but arrive at different conclusions based on the first two concepts above, which together constitute your worldview.Anyone have any problem with this so far?
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A Little About Me & What Is a Resurrection?
by Sea Breeze ina little about me first: i was a 4th generation jw who had major reservations about the wt growing up, but finally got on board at age 23 when i got baptized.
spent 8 very active years in, then 8 years out as an agnostic.
got saved in 2004 and been living the born-again christian bible-believing life ever since.
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Sea Breeze
A little about me first: I was a 4th generation JW who had major reservations about the WT growing up, but finally got on board at age 23 when I got baptized. Spent 8 very active years in, then 8 years out as an agnostic. Got saved in 2004 and been living the born-again Christian bible-believing life ever since. I serve as a trustee at a Baptist Church and on the board of directors of a K-12 Christian Academy with approximately 100 students. My kids went to a private Christian school since kindergarten, and the oldest in now headed to a top 10% university in the USA. They have never known the trauma, confusion, regrets and anguish that I grew up with.
When my mother got sick, no one even called me. Not my dad, not my two older "JW elder" brothers, no one. I found out on the internet two weeks after she had passed. I think about her everyday. I am the worst possible kind of apostate in the minds of JW's - a former JW turned born-again Christian. I have done what Jesus asked of me, and that is to be willing to say good bye to my mother, father and entire family of origin if need be. I have done it, and have come out of the other side. That is not to say that is wasn't messy at times. But I have done it all the same.
Having lived 60 years now, on both sides of the theological fence. I want to briefly give what I think are the two greatest deceptions of the WT.
The first has to do with Jesus being our Mediator "for the forgiveness of sins" as described in Mt. 26: 27-28. I have posted on this topic frequently so I won't go into any detail other than to provide a link to a booklet I wrote on the topic.
The other has to do with the common WT phrase "resurrected to spirit life". This one little phrase is absolutely loaded with misdirection. It is related the partial adoption of materialism by the WT.... the nature of man, the nature of God, the nature of resurrection, especially the bodily resurrection of Jesus and the nature of heavenly life.
So, for all you other students out there:What do you think a resurrection is? Do you think there is more than one kind ? Is it spiritual? Is it bodily. Is it something else?
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Watchtower Says Their Writings Are Part of the Bible and Are Essential For Salvation
by Sea Breeze inhard to believe, but it's true:watchtower december 15, 2008, pg.
28 – “our coming to know "the truth‟ - the entire body of christian teachings that has become part of the bible - and adhering to it are essential for our salvation”.this is the same position of the roman catholic church.
one of the pope’s titles is the vicar of christ.
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Sea Breeze
And the article meant that we need all the Christian teaching of the Bible.
Oh please. This includes the teachings "unique to JW's", right? And, the main "unique" teaching is that the WT is the modern mouth of God, right?
This is nothing new. The WT has always taught that their writings were to be regarded as the word of God."It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision." Watchtower 1957 Jun 15 p.370
a composite body, made up of many members … were commissioned to serve as the mouthpiece and active agent of Jehovah - (The Nations Shall Know THAT I AM JEHOVAH — How?, 1971, pp. 56, 58-59, 66)
"Today, Jehovah provides instruction by means of "the faithful steward." Pay Attention to Yourself and to All The Flock p.13The reason that they are to be regarded as the word of God is because they teach that the REAL Word of God doesn't even apply to those who are not WT leaders :
Watchtower 1974 June 15 p.376
"Also, it is to the spirit-anointed Christians who will rule in that kingdom that most of the Christian Greek Scriptures is directed, including the promises of everlasting life."The phrase in question is only slightly ambiguous, but THE MESSAGE is perfectly clear to JW's: WE ARE THE BIBLE AS FAR AS YOU ARE CONCERNED.
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Scriptures That Don’t Fit WT Theology
by Sea Breeze inhere’s a couple good ones: a. jesus said, “come to me and i will give you rest”.. why did jesus command us to go to him and not jehovah?.
why does the bible say that the name of jesus is above every name?
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Sea Breeze
Rev. 9 - I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Dead souls talking and being conscious is definitely a No No in WT. theology.
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Watchtower Says Their Writings Are Part of the Bible and Are Essential For Salvation
by Sea Breeze inhard to believe, but it's true:watchtower december 15, 2008, pg.
28 – “our coming to know "the truth‟ - the entire body of christian teachings that has become part of the bible - and adhering to it are essential for our salvation”.this is the same position of the roman catholic church.
one of the pope’s titles is the vicar of christ.
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Sea Breeze
@DJW - You are wrong again. As I already pointed out and you ignored - "The Truth" is interpreted by any JW as the modern organization of JW's. & their writings since 1876. It is a code phrase known by all JW's to mean the WT and their interpretations.
An outsider may interpret this sentence as you state, but not JW's.... and that is by design. It is just another example of the mental assault on the word of God that the WT conducts. Active members, living on a steady diet of the koolaide, are generally not astute enough to catch it. -
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Watchtower Says Their Writings Are Part of the Bible and Are Essential For Salvation
by Sea Breeze inhard to believe, but it's true:watchtower december 15, 2008, pg.
28 – “our coming to know "the truth‟ - the entire body of christian teachings that has become part of the bible - and adhering to it are essential for our salvation”.this is the same position of the roman catholic church.
one of the pope’s titles is the vicar of christ.
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Sea Breeze
@DJW - Your reasoning doesn't make sense. Everyone knows that NOTHING has "become" part of the bible after the last apostle died. So, they cannot be referring to biblical teaching in general. But, we all know that JW's are constantly being mentally oppressed to accept WT literature as the word of God, from "God's Mouthpiece"
In context, the WT here is in affect claiming to be God, since they can write more of the "bible" and can decide whether or not you live or die.
It's the same manure that the RCC claims when they say the Pope is infallible when he is acting as the Pope. -
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Watchtower Says Their Writings Are Part of the Bible and Are Essential For Salvation
by Sea Breeze inhard to believe, but it's true:watchtower december 15, 2008, pg.
28 – “our coming to know "the truth‟ - the entire body of christian teachings that has become part of the bible - and adhering to it are essential for our salvation”.this is the same position of the roman catholic church.
one of the pope’s titles is the vicar of christ.
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Sea Breeze
I just tested this link to dowload the entire
The 1954 Walsh Trial Transcript
It works and it's free.
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Watchtower Says Their Writings Are Part of the Bible and Are Essential For Salvation
by Sea Breeze inhard to believe, but it's true:watchtower december 15, 2008, pg.
28 – “our coming to know "the truth‟ - the entire body of christian teachings that has become part of the bible - and adhering to it are essential for our salvation”.this is the same position of the roman catholic church.
one of the pope’s titles is the vicar of christ.
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Sea Breeze
Wow.,,, thanks enoughisenough.
Found this on Redditt after a quick search:If anyone has a link to the full transcript please post.
The following testimony excerpts are from the Pursuer's Proof of Douglas Walsh vs The Right Honourable James Latham Clyde,MP, PC, as representing the Minister of Labour and National Service. The numbers following the quotations show the transcript page on which the testimony is found.
HAYDEN C COVINGTON - Former Lawyer for the Watchtower Society
Q. Is it not vital to speak the truth on religious matters? A. It certainly is.
Q. You have promulgated - forgive the word - false prophecy? A. We have. I do not think we have promulgated false prophecy, there have been statements that were erroneous, that is the way I put it, and mistaken.
Q. It was promulgated as a matter which must be believed by all members of Jehovah's witnesses that the Lord's Second Coming took place in 1874?
(A short discussion of evidence given by Fred W Franz about 1874 takes place here.)
Q. That was the publication of false prophecy? A. That was the publication of a false prophecy, it was a false statement or an erroneous statement in fulfillment of a prophecy that was false or erroneous.
Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah's Witnesses? A. Yes, because you must understand, we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step.
Q. Back to the point now, a false prophecy was promulgated? A. I agree to that.
Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah's witnesses? A. That is correct.
Q. If a member of Jehovah's witnesses took the view himself that that prophecy was wrong, and said so, would he be disfellowshipped? A. Yes, if he said so, and kept on persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erroneous, and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across, then there is a disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching ...... Our purpose is to have unity.
Q. Unity at all costs? A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation,the governing body of our organisation, to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time.
Q. A unity based on an enforced acceptance of false prophecy? A. That is conceded to be true.
Q. And the person who expresses his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshipped, would be in breach of the covenant, if he was baptised? A. That is correct.
Q. And as you said yesterday expressly, would be worthy of death? A. I think....
Q. Would you say yes or no? A. I will answer yes, unhesitatingly.
Q. Do you call that religion? A. It certainly is.
Q. Do you call that Christianity? A. I certainly do.
PP. 345-348
So, there you go. If you disagree with the WT, even a WT false prophecy, you are worthy of death.